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Post by afilreis on Jan 2, 2023 15:02:08 GMT -5
The first sample of Joan Retallack's writing we will discuss is a section from a long poem called "Western Civ Cont'd." The long poem takes up the second half of Retallack's book Procedural Elegies/Western Civ Cont'd/ pubilshed by Roof Books. (The book is in print and available.)
We will be discussing section #28 from "Western Civ Cont'd." Click HERE to view the cover of the book, the prefatory poem to "Western Civ Cont'd" and then #28.
You might begin by attempting to understand what the poet is saying about the possible relationship of geometry to history. (Keep in mind that Retallack's ethical ideas include the concept she calls "geometries of attention.")
In your comments posted here in this thread, say anything you want or need to say as you understand this poem. And ask questions, of course!
You can hear Retallack perform this poem by listening HERE.
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Elisabeth Frischauf
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Post by Elisabeth Frischauf on Jan 4, 2023 17:07:19 GMT -5
Rich in sound, imagery and irony. Two poems: the visual Z and the spoken. This on a quick read and listen. More to come
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Post by Colin Powers on Jan 4, 2023 21:17:25 GMT -5
Interesting curvature in #28 which reminds me immediately of CA Conrad's recent "Shard" series. Although, lines are broken in the middle of words more eagerly here. Nice mix of discursive and lyrical bits, as well as everyday-ness ("books over / due at library"). This is too corny, but...fractals repeat, history repeats.
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Post by Denny Stern on Jan 4, 2023 23:09:52 GMT -5
Knowing this to be a single page excerpted from a much longer poem feels constrained as if one were to see a detail of a painting without seeing the painting as a whole. I like the eccentric z shape of this page and the breezy satirical humor. I’ve never really understood what fractals are though they are intriguing. Here’s a quote about them from Mandelbrot regarding fractals "A fractal is a rough or fragmented geometric shape that can be split into parts, each of which is (at least approximately) a reduced-size copy of the whole."[1]
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Post by Sandy on Jan 5, 2023 0:21:31 GMT -5
i like how the deep thoughts are punctuated by "life" - garbage needs to go out/overdue books. The frustration regarding the garden/gophers can apply to many things - work hard on something - investment of time/money but people don't see the hard work/effort - they just see the evidence of gophers (failure?).
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Post by sophianaz on Jan 5, 2023 0:27:29 GMT -5
There are several things going on simultaneously with this wonderful poem. There is the geometry of the Z shape, ( I am wondering if Retallack chose this shape because the zigzag is an illustration of the highs and lows, the changes in scale), the lines of the poem enact the replicating line breaks and the scale shifts constantly between past and present, quotidian and epic, so the zigzagging is accomplished as much by language as it is by the shape of the poem, with the music of the replication and the internal rhymes a lovely coherent counterpoint to all the dizzying jumping from point to point of the subject matter. Retallack’s reading of the poem is also a kind of “performative geometry”, which is after all, what music is, a geometry of space and time.
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Post by roberta on Jan 5, 2023 7:53:14 GMT -5
Fractals repeating patterns, nothing is new, life and the world are cyclical. I love the way she has incorporated the everyday of everyman into the cycle of events of majestic proportions. When you hear JR read you learn more from the emphasis on certain words than you initially see from a first personal reading which is really interesting.
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Post by afilreis on Jan 5, 2023 7:56:55 GMT -5
Knowing this to be a single page excerpted from a much longer poem feels constrained as if one were to see a detail of a painting without seeing the painting as a whole. I like the eccentric z shape of this page and the breezy satirical humor. I’ve never really understood what fractals are though they are intriguing. Here’s a quote about them from Mandelbrot regarding fractals "A fractal is a rough or fragmented geometric shape that can be split into parts, each of which is (at least approximately) a reduced-size copy of the whole."[1]
Denny, our mode (for the sake of focused coherent discussion, as you well know) is to take one poem at a time. This one section will need to stand for the whole. However, Joan read several sections of this poem at various readings and you can hear these, for context, by going to her PennSound page:
- Al
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Post by Jim Lynch on Jan 5, 2023 12:33:43 GMT -5
Just a quick note on the visual shape of the poem – I can certainly see the Z shape (or even the number 2, implying duality, binary, etc) – but wondered if anyone else can see the shape of the hare (of the preceding prelude) running in the wind, it's long ears the three top lines on the left supported by the air it's racing through in Aesop's Fable (before the nap), the bottom lines maybe it's outstretched front and hind legs in motion? Reminded me of the famous duck rabbit illusion (image of which, according to Wikipedia, one of Retallack's favorite philosophers Wittgenstein employed in his work not long after image first appeared) which illustrates figure-ground perception and another theme of Retallack's – that of borders/identities/ecotones and their merging (like a “horizon [disappearing] in a cloud of dust”) and interacting. My wife when looking at it also mentioned the reverse (of the hare) figure of a revolver.
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Post by Lou Nelson on Jan 5, 2023 13:49:45 GMT -5
Thanks, Al for the link to more of JR's readings from Western Civ Cont'd. I shared Denny's feeling of wanting to know more of what came before and after and around the edges. Upon listening to the reading I felt pleasure in thinking about fractals and their beauty built through repetition, and how that contrasts with history, where usually what repeats are atrocities, wars, arrogance, overstepping of bounds, violence, killing. Why is it that the good stuff doesn't repeat? I love the hilarity of the "why not" and the "surely you jest." The oppositions of the beautiful garden and lawn, and the gophers spoiling that hard-earned performance of convention. The everyday intrudes with its demands. Or is it the counterpoint, the tension that causes the fractals to replicate?
What is "fractal geometry" anyway? According to the McGill School of Computer Science [yay Montreal!] circa 2007, "Examples include clouds, snowflakes, mountains, river networks, cauliflower or broccoli, and systems of blood vessels" {tumescent?}. Also, "The idea of recursive self-similarity" (Leibniz). See Denny's response for Benoit Mandelbrot's definition from 1975.
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Post by Judy on Jan 5, 2023 15:49:02 GMT -5
I can't locate this poetry and what to do now.
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Post by Barbara Nilsen on Jan 5, 2023 17:28:16 GMT -5
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Post by mirandaj on Jan 5, 2023 17:32:47 GMT -5
I am really noticing the fractal elements here. I think of fractals as shapes which retain their form even if you zoom in or out. For instance, zooming into a tree shows you a branch which has a similar structure to the tree itself, and then you can zoom into a smaller branch, and then a twig, all of which have the same branched structure. And zoom out and see the whole network of the forest. So it's like things that are the same but at different scales.
In the poem, the 'Z' form is like a letter, just as letters are found in poems if you zoom in. But it can also be interpreted as many other things (a hare, a zigzag, geometry itself) - just as the content of the poem can. And poems too can be interpreted at the level of the school, the poet, the book, the single poem as we are doing here, the line, the word, even the very letter. You can zoom in and out and still you can find infinity there.
And the individual elements of the poem are also like this - they range from the epic to the everyday, from excavations at Troy to those in one's lawn. But the poem tries to bring them together, to show how they are similar nonetheless.
I think the same theme is visible in the front cover - small squares which are tiny pictures themselves but together make up a larger image. The jumbled nature makes this more obvious in a way, as otherwise we might miss the fractured elements. But again, like poems, we could also interpret it in other ways - it also makes me think of one of those puzzles where you have to slide the parts until you get a coherent whole. I think we can rearrange poem parts forever and make many coherent wholes!
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Post by Barbara Nilsen on Jan 5, 2023 19:28:23 GMT -5
Just a quick note on the visual shape of the poem – I can certainly see the Z shape (or even the number 2, implying duality, binary, etc) – but wondered if anyone else can see the shape of the hare (of the preceding prelude) running in the wind, it's long ears the three top lines on the left supported by the air it's racing through in Aesop's Fable (before the nap), the bottom lines maybe it's outstretched front and hind legs in motion? Reminded me of the famous duck rabbit illusion (image of which, according to Wikipedia, one of Retallack's favorite philosophers Wittgenstein employed in his work not long after image first appeared) which illustrates figure-ground perception and another theme of Retallack's – that of borders/identities/ecotones and their merging (like a “horizon [disappearing] in a cloud of dust”) and interacting. My wife when looking at it also mentioned the reverse (of the hare) figure of a revolver. I do see a Z when I look at the poem on the page, but it isn't quite 'right.' That leaves room for the imagination. Because you suggested it, I now also see a hare running with ears in the air. I also looked up the duck/rabbit illusion which is new to me. Being visually surprised is a treat. Attention plays such an important role in what is perceived. While routinized attention is an important survival mechanism, it can also limit possibility. The world of poetry is a safe place to be surprised. Paradigms can shift. Thanks for all your fun observations.
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Post by Vijaya Maddali on Jan 5, 2023 21:39:51 GMT -5
Joan Retallack's poethics is driven by the recognition of complexity in our contemporary world. According to her, art has to necessarily engage with this complexity. This Z-shaped piece by comparing history to fractal geometry challenges the conventional notion of history. I am fascinated by how she supports the first three lines with the slanted lines, which contain references to ordinary life chores returning library books, and taking out the garbage those fractured words at the end of the lines give an impression of how real life is interrupted. Apart from the ordinary, the commonplace, there are references to archeological finds (these also change the existing narratives of history) and the mathematical work that again buffers our 'real' world. The lower three lines give this image of how the plans for an ordered, neat lawn are disrupted by the gophers! It is such a playful example of the randomness that disrupts our necessity for patterns and order. Those descriptive words to categorize men and women sounds ironic. I love the richness and the dense piece. So much to unravel and so fascinating.
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