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Post by Adrian French on Jan 8, 2023 12:20:39 GMT -5
What do you make of the little inserted story about how “you” make your lawn and garden beautiful but you seem to be growing gopher mounds? And of the bees who actually see runways on flowers? The way that Retallack reads her text differs from the way I experience it on the page. She reads a flow of words starting with 28 and ending 'see fig.28'. So the reading is self referential. However far back in space or time I set myself, I hear a fractal being expressed. The printed page omits the 'see' and I have to create the significance for myself. The printed page is interesting in other ways: the pattern created by the words on the printed page is unexpected. It is as though the centre of the text has been barged sideways by the prow of a ship; or maybe the shape represents a letter of the aphabet, perhaps a 'z' which means that to read on we have to return to 'a'; or it might be a numeral. But it is not clearly any of those things. It also becomes unclear where the margin of the text lies. Is the clear space to the left silent space (silence and space are incomensurable)? Does the silent space extend to the page margin? So every time I smooth the lawn of my understanding to sow a runway for the bees, a gopher pops up Within a geometry of attention is three days too short for close reading? Or merely incommensurable? Can I claim a fractal of co-performance?
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Post by vijaya on Jan 8, 2023 12:44:08 GMT -5
My response to Al's follow-up question is that the neatly laid out lawns and the Hare both are representative of the White, Male, Patriarchal, and corporate hubris that keeps ignoring the idea that Nature can upend our lives. Ecological disasters have become a part of our lives. And we are disconnected from Nature and also from the lives of ordinary people represented by the Tortoise. ' We are all in this together' is not exactly something that powers the ideologies that support massive corporations which in turn feed the political machinery. That beautiful image of the bees landing on flowers because they can actually see invisible runways is humorous but underpins serious ideas of how human Imagination can only be bounded by Nature. Or maybe, JR just put that there as a lovely joke. I love her retelling of the Tortoise and Hare fable in such a contemporary way. She brings out the arrogance, the indifference of the conventional western stance to everything outside of its own self-absorbed reality in such a refreshing way.
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Post by Geri on Jan 8, 2023 13:38:48 GMT -5
I didn't see the hare until I started reading the comments and did wonder why the Z was a bit off centre. Now I see nothing but the hare! My favourite part of this piece is the start of the answer to her initial question: who can deny the many replicating breaks, the many changes of scale I start to think of the repeated wars and power struggles in human history and the ever changing boundaries of territories.
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Post by Jim Lynch on Jan 8, 2023 14:33:40 GMT -5
There are several things going on simultaneously with this wonderful poem. There is the geometry of the Z shape, ( I am wondering if Retallack chose this shape because the zigzag is an illustration of the highs and lows, the changes in scale), the lines of the poem enact the replicating line breaks and the scale shifts constantly between past and present, quotidian and epic, so the zigzagging is accomplished as much by language as it is by the shape of the poem, with the music of the replication and the internal rhymes a lovely coherent counterpoint to all the dizzying jumping from point to point of the subject matter. Retallack’s reading of the poem is also a kind of “performative geometry”, which is after all, what music is, a geometry of space and time. Hi Sophia – thinking about your comment on the Z/zigzag as illustration of “the highs and lows, the changes in scale” - while the top and bottom bars of the letter Z are perhaps ½ as long as the slanted mid-bar (and so reduced in scale and yet similar), on the page the vertical bar merges with both horizons of top and bottom, further complicating the interplay here, the “dizzying jumping from point to point” as you say (which reminds me of looking through all of these posts, and I haven't even looked at the next two poems yet). Illustrating I suppose how the interconnectedness of everything is both infinite and bounded – infinite in the sense of endless variation of combinatory improvisations of meaning – yet all within a geometric and metric shape with edges and limits (even if these edges and limits from an outer perspective can be transgressed by outer experiences of reader, or by the other poems in book, the world, etc). Tho the Mandelbrot set repeats as it seems to shrink in scale, from the perspective of any of these repetitions, it alone is the origin of the other repetitions, whether larger or smaller – a sort of worlds within worlds without knowledge of beginning or end. Maybe this is the same with history, different time periods, each one thinking itself unique compared to past ages, but really just a repetition with variations, and each one thinking it will give birth to something new in the future, not just more variations on the infinite. “Does fractal geometry really apply to history?” Does fractal geometry really apply to poetry? To propagation? To overdue library books? To the swelling garbage? To investigation of levels? To the infinity of pi and endless apple pies? To gardening? To harnessing and shaping nature? To futility? To effort? To feeling? To binary thinking? To seriousness? To humor? In a complex world of indeterminacy can't anything apply to anything else?
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Post by Nella Elena on Jan 8, 2023 15:29:59 GMT -5
What do you make of the little inserted story about how “you” make your lawn and garden beautiful but you seem to be growing gopher mounds? And of the bees who actually see runways on flowers? How does that connect with the general abstract topic of Western Civilization? In what way does the torqued allegory of tortoise and hare (in the poem’s epigraph) relate? The Tale about Hare and Tortoise is one of the most ancient and famous because this is one of Aesop's fables adapted many times for children from all European countries and known for children who are touched somehow by Western civilization beyond Europe. The latter always praises swift achievement and tends to underestimate slow, successive way to goals. Western civilization is based mostly on rational approach, underlining legalist principles of law and religion (if we speak generally about Christianity as religion that defined and shaped what we now call West), ambition and desire for achievement made it run hurriedly and not pay attention to other things that could be important and precious for other civilizations. West often looked at other civilizations with their own foundations and culture as if they were wrong or as if they did not know right things yet, their story seemed not interesting because it was their view, their version, and there was not enough time to stop, observe and think about others. When you have multiple stories, you immediately get many interpretations, and life becomes slower, more complicated, probably too complicated for quick decisions. The last line of the poem is also interesting. Horizon is only imaginary line that does not disappear but goes further if we approach it. Horizon marks limits but also helps to orientate and choose direction. But dust hid horizon, and we found ourselves left without map , compass or manual instruction): what and how to do. And we do not know what we will discover after dust storm.Correct references, cultural allusions, numbers and logically structured argumentation are symbols of Western science and Western culture but sometimes ratio does not help but prevents from perception of beauty and wonder of this world. If one catalogues reality (even bees), reality could turn into numerous fragments, and it is difficult to see a whole picture in them. The shape of "z", usual last letter of Latin alphabet, hints at the end of the chapter. But we know that Latin civilization was based on Greek culture (Aesop), and Greek alphabet has "omega" as the last letter, thus Western civilization could use new alphabet again.
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Post by Jim Lynch on Jan 8, 2023 15:34:00 GMT -5
The oppositions of the beautiful garden and lawn, and the gophers spoiling that hard-earned performance of convention. The everyday intrudes with its demands. Or is it the counterpoint, the tension that causes the fractals to replicate? Interesting point about counterpoint producing the replication - opposites attract and then.....replicate! Also similar to Hegelian dialectical model of reason wherein the thesis and antithesis produce synthesis, something new. But what if fractals replicate just because that's what fractals do? Maybe better to not try to understand it, but just ride the wave and enjoy the ride? Tag along. Opposition may be fractal too – two binaries may just as well produce four new binaries than a synthesis of the original two. Or maybe the the mind sees/creates opposition where nature sees unity of diverse multiplicity/complexity. Does the gopher see the manicured lawn/garden? The Garden of myth took care of humans perhaps, not the other way around.
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Post by Jim Lynch on Jan 8, 2023 16:13:16 GMT -5
I am really noticing the fractal elements here. I think of fractals as shapes which retain their form even if you zoom in or out. For instance, zooming into a tree shows you a branch which has a similar structure to the tree itself, and then you can zoom into a smaller branch, and then a twig, all of which have the same branched structure. And zoom out and see the whole network of the forest. So it's like things that are the same but at different scales. In the poem, the 'Z' form is like a letter, just as letters are found in poems if you zoom in. But it can also be interpreted as many other things (a hare, a zigzag, geometry itself) - just as the content of the poem can. And poems too can be interpreted at the level of the school, the poet, the book, the single poem as we are doing here, the line, the word, even the very letter. You can zoom in and out and still you can find infinity there. And the individual elements of the poem are also like this - they range from the epic to the everyday, from excavations at Troy to those in one's lawn. But the poem tries to bring them together, to show how they are similar nonetheless. I think the same theme is visible in the front cover - small squares which are tiny pictures themselves but together make up a larger image. The jumbled nature makes this more obvious in a way, as otherwise we might miss the fractured elements. But again, like poems, we could also interpret it in other ways - it also makes me think of one of those puzzles where you have to slide the parts until you get a coherent whole. I think we can rearrange poem parts forever and make many coherent wholes! Hey Miranda! Love the idea of the zoom! esp as it goes in either direction. How much would we not know or even guess at if not for the microscope or the telescope? And a good compliment to Sophianaz's Z as zig-zag. Not being all-too acquainted with Retallack's work but aware of her investigation into fragments (fractals?) of words, I really like your pointing to the interpretation (O ModPo exegetes!) of poetry at the level of the letter or even phoneme: “the line, the word, the very letter.” I felt that's what the poem was illustrating in the assonantal rhymes of replicating/breaks/scale/(and later, excavations) and then (even more so) in exegetes/agree/bee/see (and later needs/reveals) - zooming in on the fractal nature of poetry or prosody where sounds replicate in self-similarity. Also loved your pointing out the twin excavations at Troy and in our lawns and gardens – epic and everyday as you say, but also digging down and digging up – as in zooming in and zooming out. Maybe the gophers are trying to discover our carefully crafted story?
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Post by Jason Luz on Jan 8, 2023 17:57:05 GMT -5
What do you make of the little inserted story about how “you” make your lawn and garden beautiful but you seem to be growing gopher mounds? And of the bees who actually see runways on flowers? How does that connect with the general abstract topic of Western Civilization? In what way does the torqued allegory of tortoise and hare (in the poem’s epigraph) relate? I'm reminded of that other mathematical oddity of fractal objects--they have fractional dimensions. For instance the Sierpinski triangle as an idealized math object is somewhere between 1 and 2 dimensions, between a line and a plane. So there's something multi-dimensional, multi-valent about that interceding passage of domestic banality, unseen nuances like that bee's ultraviolet palette--all these things, these minima at play with these larger cultural artifacts writ large--western civ. And that funny meddling with the Aesop fable makes me think about the gender constructions inherent in those allegories about resilience, labor, ethics. It makes me think the project of poethics is about these kind of nuances that transcend the standard promulgated and perceived lines and planes of attention. 
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Post by Laura De Bernardi on Jan 8, 2023 18:27:07 GMT -5
Lawns, gophers, bees, tortoises & hares: The merits of ‘Western Civilisation’ are much disputed now, so I read the title “WESTERN CIV CONT’D” in that context. The title implies various questions, including: how has it continued, how will it continue, should it continue and if it does not, what will replace it? That it is fully capitalized suggests that our history is important, although CIV, being a kind of slang, suggests that the concept of civilization itself requires some investigation.
So what do lawns and gophers have to do with hares and tortoises? The lawn/gopher story has a fable quality to it, namely a moral. In this case, no matter what you do to ‘beautify’ your world, there will always be a corrupting influence that has to be dealt with. It’s possible to argue then the Western Civilisation – even all human endeavour – whether at the micro village level or at the macro level of large swathes of time, involve two steps forward and one step back.
“Black gold” ie oil, is a great example. Its discovery heralded the most technologically advanced ‘civilisation’ in history. Yet the ‘gopher’ of this particular story is climate change. Enough said!
As for tortoises, hares, and a shepherdess, I think that issues of selfishness and altruism, optimism and pessimism underpin Retallack’s retelling of the early fable and later nursery rhyme. To be a hare is to be selfish, out to win. While this is not evident in the original tale, Retallack’s question, ‘we’re all in it together, right?’ implies this kind of analysis. In the nursery rhyme, Bo-Peep loses her sheep, which all return to her despite her oversight – ie, not all bad outcomes are of the lawn/gopher variety. That’s the optimism, pessimism link.
If we’re to survive the profound challenges that Western Civilisation’s insistence on progress, etc, implies, are we ‘all in it together’, or will those who are selfish, in it for themselves, be the ones who are best equipped to survive? Facebook executives buying up islands - preparing for safe havens in which to retreat when the coming climate/economic collapse finally arrives - that kind of thing, is what’s being alluded to here.
These four qualities are fundamental, psychological categories that inform all human endeavour. Do you look on the bright side, and if you do, are you more likely to survive the coming apocalypse, ie WEST CIV dis-CONT’D?
Also, all the early fables were written for and read originally by adults. Socrates, in prison, is said to have quoted from Aesop. It’s only in the Renaissance, and later, that the fables became the means of both morally educating and entertaining children.
Fables go to how morals are disseminated and morals involve how we live together, structure communities, and ultimately get along, or not. Perhaps it’s time we all start reading fables again, and take them seriously. It’s not a bad idea!
When it comes to bees and runways, is Retallack alluding to the vast shifts in research that are occurring about how the natural world organizes itself independently of human endeavour? The moral lives of animals, the inner life of trees, etc. What can be learned from that?
Finally, yes, in all likelihood, a petal is a landing strip for a bee! The early Japanese haiku writers would have no problem with that kind of imagery. In one of Basho’s haiku, a bee emerges ‘drunk’ from a flower, staggering! Pleasure! Delight! Lose those qualities, in how you interact with the world around you, and you’re well and truly lost. There’s another fable!
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Post by Barbara Nilsen on Jan 8, 2023 19:41:42 GMT -5
Thinking about the question, "In what way does the torqued allegory of tortoise and hare (in the poem’s epigraph) relate?" took me back to the poem. I haven't read all the posts, but I just realized that the mistaken 'BoPeep' wasn't a Hare at all. He was actually the White Rabbit (a rabbit is a different species) from Alice in Wonderland.--'Among other things, you've got the wrong story, the wrong gender, and the wrong species.' The White Rabbit from Wonderland is always in a hurry --he flies by the Tortoise in the poem saying, "I gotta go.' Unlike Alice, the Tortoise doesn't follow, but is left behind in a cloud of dust. Alice, on the other hand, ran after the White Rabbit who led her on amazing Adventures in Wonderland--Western Civ. turned upside down!
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Post by Jim Lynch on Jan 8, 2023 20:21:17 GMT -5
Just a quick note on the visual shape of the poem – I can certainly see the Z shape (or even the number 2, implying duality, binary, etc) – but wondered if anyone else can see the shape of the hare (of the preceding prelude) running in the wind, it's long ears the three top lines on the left supported by the air it's racing through in Aesop's Fable (before the nap), the bottom lines maybe it's outstretched front and hind legs in motion? Reminded me of the famous duck rabbit illusion (image of which, according to Wikipedia, one of Retallack's favorite philosophers Wittgenstein employed in his work not long after image first appeared) which illustrates figure-ground perception and another theme of Retallack's – that of borders/identities/ecotones and their merging (like a “horizon [disappearing] in a cloud of dust”) and interacting. My wife when looking at it also mentioned the reverse (of the hare) figure of a revolver. I do see a Z when I look at the poem on the page, but it isn't quite 'right.' That leaves room for the imagination. Because you suggested it, I now also see a hare running with ears in the air. I also looked up the duck/rabbit illusion which is new to me. Being visually surprised is a treat. Attention plays such an important role in what is perceived. While routinized attention is an important survival mechanism, it can also limit possibility. The world of poetry is a safe place to be surprised. Paradigms can shift. Thanks for all your fun observations. Thank you, Barbara – and yes, the “Doors of Perception” can be opened wide within the confines of a poem, and in a poem like this one where so much of the world is being sampled/quoted, it's like we're being taken on a fractal journey both in and out of higher, more complex dimensions – like dancing in a tesseract!
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leahs
ModPo student
Posts: 11
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Post by leahs on Jan 8, 2023 21:35:50 GMT -5
I loved considering the "many replicating breaks" here, and how the form of the poem enacts so many replicating breaks on language in the middle part of the poem. The drive to keep to form means that words are broken in ways that can be nonsensical, unhelpful. History here breaks down and buries language and experiences, mixes it and digs it like a combine, shovel or spade, making it unuseful or unintelligible, I think is her meaning -- or fertilizing it in fresh ways.
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Post by Jim Lynch on Jan 8, 2023 21:42:04 GMT -5
The notion of history as fractal and a geometry of attention makes me think of how mathematical concepts become metaphors for highly complex sociological phenomena, not in the sense of modeling but as a way to sort through or consider such a chaotic, stochastic assemblage, a different kind of meta narrative. If in a sense every moment is a replicating break between the past and the future, what would a narrative of a moment look like, a narrative of the now – a story that ends before it can begin yet containing every narrative within it in potentia. THAT WHICH IS and THAT WHICH ISN”T. Always changing weight each time you weigh it with your attention.
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Post by Jim Lynch on Jan 8, 2023 22:19:27 GMT -5
She is including historical events and concepts from outside of what is usually considered "Western civ" and challenges us to go beyond the limitations of the accepted narratives and how we bring those to our interpretations of what comes from cultures outside of our own in both time and space. One example is the interpretation of male and female at the end of Western Civ Contd. 28. They are from the traditional descriptions of yin and yang, they are completely devoid of value judgement, there is no good and bad included in the pair, no better or worse. In fact they each contain the seed of the other and are constantly shifting and changing one into the other. Very hard for a culture that is based on oppositions and duality to even fathom that. Hey Lynn – I've been wondering myself about the end of the poem here with the Yin Yang samples – and I wonder if any language/vocabulary is “completely devoid of value judgement”. Retallack's inclusion of this seems to be a provocation at least and could be entertained as problematic. And I wonder if she would update male/female to masculine/feminine. THAT WHICH IS is the title of Jainist Sutra, Tattvartha, the nature of reality. Who polices the nature of reality, tho?? Certainly similar attributions exist in western culture, like rational/irrational, with definite (tho false) value judgements. I'd say that's a commonly accepted narrative that needs challenged. Especially if we can do it with a sense of humor, both blowing our nose and our knows.
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Post by Jim Lynch on Jan 8, 2023 23:40:12 GMT -5
So, to me it looks like she's looking at patriarchal hegemony here... and she's signposted this with the tortoise and hare gender play. How are we constructed? If we zoom in, is gender fractal? Or gender politics? She's being playful but also very serious, I feel. Also thinking of the old theories about a homunculus where you could zoom in (imaginatively) inside a womb to see the 'little man' inside. Is that the lens history as fractal is trying to get us to use? Hey Hannah, enjoyed your reflections and got me thinking. Maybe gender is fractal in that it isn't smooth, isn't binary (except in a limited sense) but a more a matter of scale, that it is rough like a fractal dimension, that it evades dogmatic (and value-charged) definition. Whether we zoom in or zoom out. If we apply the homunculus idea/lens – like “turtles all the way down”, infinity mirrors, infinite regress, etc – to history, what would be the resulting discoveries? That history is repeating itself both from the quotidian to the universal and from the individual to the collective, from the animate to the inanimate and from the subjective to the objective? And where the chicken and where the egg? In the world of fractals is there even a narrative, a beginning or end? Where are we?
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