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Post by Paul K on Jan 16, 2023 23:04:19 GMT -5
Transcription (as best i could) of R's “SteinZas in Mediation” minus the Stein passages - Jim Lynch Jim et al -- I added the Stein passages -Paul (1:56) Epigraph: A fragment from “A Vocabulary of Thinking” (from “How To Write”): “A lighting from the once in a while destroyed it as a memento.” #1. (2:06) There are are there instances of this in every era a new dispersal of the subject or that there shall be a complete fragment or that the fragment shall be as if the is reflects is the while is the place they were between sometimes or what would begin in their [they're/there?] here
I And But That In That But Whatever It And They But That In Not In All But Or Not Made Made Lengthened But But All Kindly
#2 (2:53) No the river hollow with which I call them love of up began from who who goes yellow I must hedge whisper wet going over straighten nothing to say un un in glass fill empty burn white
It Or They Or Not For They Because Coming For Coming For Or Not But As Just All All For More Always Or Just It As Liking it Once Nearly In They Just Coming Always Liking Which Mine Or Often As Think And
#3 (3:47) Of creating a usable past in here's nowhere redistributive humor how to not inscribe yourself in the system you're opposing opposing opposable thumbs up to a point of no turn no not the turn to oppose to it at all
It Yes As To Or In Please What Not That Not Coming He He Which And That As Not Just It Of She Not And Or Not She When In All Or Four And
#4 (4:34) Shade of images of and have read instead she varied the speeds synchronizing mind-body problem of no problem we're willing to leave blanks for to of what no less than 5 question marks 4 ifs no thens I gave up Shelley after several years of living in Manhattan
Just Or For Which They It Or Not Nearly For In All All For They That In Why For In That Should All For It They It It While Should For For Not No If Like It But A And She Did We After They After Just Once
#5 (5:31) Logic except for instance holding resembling wake hold thought final hold dissolves holds hold when word and lives the deep seventy kinds as if no end so botanists I exists time's sad power error of off or at truant the view like Chinese poets some goat West coast realtors sky green chairs rail against altitude what's blur from more
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Post by jimlynch on Jan 16, 2023 23:08:07 GMT -5
Thanks Paul - I had run out of energy - it does make a difference!
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Post by jimlynch on Jan 17, 2023 1:23:55 GMT -5
Charlie Parker blew “Now's the Time” back in the 1940's and each time he blew a little differently, he began again every time and each time it was another time but always now. Each time a composition, a composing. The Time is Now. Time is always approaching the future. I come to the moment with everything that is my past. My backpack of then. But this is the moment of being in the moment, both immersed in the past and free of it and stumbling into the future. Somewhere in my backpack of then is a memory from my future remembering me free. What is at hand.
Music is always the easiest analogy for approaching these modern experimental poets. Different artists performing the same musical composition render it differently- and it is enjoyable to note where and why they differ. And in fact, the same artist performing it at different times does it differently. But the repetition is so pleasurable. I like 'My backpack of then. But this is the moment, both immersed in the past and free of it and stumbling into the future' Hey Vijaya! I've been thinking a lot about music and poetry lately – including improvisation, repetition and variation. I've been listening on my bike rides lately to a YouTube playlist of Jeff Beck live concerts – and in particular a series from the 1975 tour, many shows back to back (day to day), and it's amazing how different the performance of the same songs are. Variation within a defined structure – not unlike random within a ordered pattern that Retallack speaks of, and to. And been thinking of Stein and repetition and creation of rhythms, harmonies and dissonances. Lou Nelson in her 1/13 11:41 post says “....of Stein, I'd say she seems to evacuate meaning from words in order to allow for new perceptions and associations to arise.” I would agree here that the repetition and variation (and one might say fractal repetition-variations as they are self-similar (slef-similar) but not identical) make the words sound strange to us (as so many have pointed out) which allows for the creation of those “new perceptions and associations” that Lou brings up. And yet the rhythms can be soothing and playful at the same time – reminds me often of horizontal tala rhythms, her repetition of the same words in different orders single out the play and rhythm of the syllables. But the play of meaning perhaps is the raga then, the melody of meaning stretched across the play of rhythmic syllables that have given up their larger semantic meaning for a signature of beat and accent. At other times I find the repetition in Stein dissonant in that she's still in the process of breaking down meaning and relentless about it – and this reminds me more of Steve Reich's early compositions with tape loops like “It's Gonna Rain” and “Come Out” (both worth a listen to on You Tube), where short phrases on recording tape are spliced to create a loop, copied, and then the identical looped phrases are played on 2 tape players, the words in synch (or in phase) at first but then slowly going out of synch as the tape players never play at exactly the same speed, creating echo and distortion and rhythms of dissonance that slowly evolve to a turning point at which they reverse the patterns and return eventually to being in synch once again. I was reminded of these recordings when I first heard recordings of Stein. The relentless breakdown of semantic meaning can only resolve itself once the listener begins to create new meaning and Stein in her arrangement seems to aid in this. In phase, then out of phase, then back in phase. Innocence, experience, then renewed innocence. Meaning, chaos, then new meaning. And this brings me to a subject that Ray Schrempf brought up in his 1/14 9:17 PM post, of Wittgenstein's “mad method” as “template for the “passionate method” that returns in modernism for JR in Stein.” Certainly Stein can sometimes drive one “mad” or “out of their mind” in the best way possible, esp in sustained readings (and that's the fun in it) – but could one say that there is passion there too? I would say yes, that there is passion, emotion, meaning there – otherwise her writings would not have the effect on us that they do. Retallack often speaks of “intellectual” swerves – like the uncertainty principal or chaos theory – but emotional swerves are what powers the worlds we actually live in, and therein lies deeper meaning. The other great Modernist of the time, Ezra Pound, defined the “absolute rhythm” that made poetry genuine as “a rhythm...which corresponds exactly to the emotion or shade of emotion to be expressed.” Further he says that emotion, as energy, creates pattern which creates image. But without true emotion or vital energy there is no true poetry. Is this related to the “passionate method”? As Cat McCredie noted in her posted replies to Paul K. and Lidia earlier today, she wasn't connecting to Retallack's poetry until she heard “ Woman in a Chinese Room” - which she described as “utterly beautiful.” I'd say that's the “passionate method” at work there. And Paul K. also brings up Wittgenstein's “mad method” and its relation to his statement that “Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.” But as we learn from Cage (and any foray into meditation), there is no such thing as “Silence”. And so one must speak, not scientifically, but poetically, passionately. Not to transcend our world, but to create it anew out of the void that is both empty and filled with everything. To bring this back to music, and to Retallack's poetry, and to Ezra Pound, I wonder how much influence his notion of the “tone leading of vowels” has in her work – that is if it has any? Especially in the sense of a poetry whose music is often dependent upon fragments of sound, that is phonemes. I'm certainly uncertainly still yet moving in the process of figuring (grounding?) (by grinding) it all out (in?).
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Post by jimlynch on Jan 17, 2023 2:31:34 GMT -5
I did enjoy especially Retallack's reading related to Jasper Johns at the end -- the reading in which fork as painting is valued as better than painting as fork, if I recall. There's something about that language, and knowing a bit of Johns' work, that makes the use of words/symbols vs. use of objects/materials lay more bare for me. Or the use of words to stand in for objects. In Stein, perhaps, words sometimes stand in for sounds -- repetition, rather than helping us learn a language, helps us unlearn it in her oeuvre. Hey Leah – this reminded me of O'Hara's poem “Why I Am Not a Painter” where he relates the story of Mike Goldberg's painting Sardines - and the erasure of the subject in Abstract Expressionism – like the erasure of conventional meanings in Stein? By the overlaying of materiality, words instead of paint made THICK? - Jim
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Post by dianeld on Jan 17, 2023 4:28:38 GMT -5
I'm not really bothered by the shape, construction or any other aspect of a poem come to that, but I am deeply bothered by the notion of communication. To me any form of art is about communication so I am always hoping to find something that I can understand, relate to, love or hate, feel, want to argue about or celebrate - and, come to that, anything else in between or beyond. If communication is bound about by secrets and obscure references then I am left untouched.
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Post by Prithvijeet Sinha on Jan 17, 2023 5:07:32 GMT -5
First things first. I want to extend my heartiest gratitude to the MODPO Team for sharing this audio file with all of us, the discerning souls who definitely wanted to hear Ms. Retallack share her unique worldviews with the world. To say that her command of language, control of voice, employment of judicious pauses to let the mass of her words linger in our minds is soothing, excellently modulated will be appropriate. But then more than those obvious qualities, her experience counts, her years of honing of skills along with her own output stand out as individual feats.
Her enunciation, crystal clear, and the concentration to making legible others'words is even more admirable. You feel the value she invests in each word. I loved how Getrude Stein's idiosyncratic reiteration of words as regards her views on 'Composition' are delivered with a sense of patient dignity, each expression uttered registering for the listener.
The final portion is suitably about the nature of art; Art as not merely representation alone, Art as being a real entity and not just some breakaway construct. It also encompasses the manner in which decimals, x,y co-ordinates have being accomodated in her oeuvre to arrive at a place of comprehending everyday truth. The unconventional is the conventional for her and I think more than any other factor, it's the clarity she brings here to bear that makes all the difference.
Thank you once again for giving this MODPOER an opportunity to relive these precious twenty eight minutes. Je'adore.
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lidia
ModPo student
Posts: 24
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Post by lidia on Jan 17, 2023 7:08:59 GMT -5
I'm not really bothered by the shape, construction or any other aspect of a poem come to that, but I am deeply bothered by the notion of communication. To me any form of art is about communication so I am always hoping to find something that I can understand, relate to, love or hate, feel, want to argue about or celebrate - and, come to that, anything else in between or beyond. If communication is bound about by secrets and obscure references then I am left untouched.
I wonder if academics can just read this type of poetry with easy (immediate) comprehension or do they have to work at it.
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adef
ModPo student
Posts: 20
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Post by adef on Jan 17, 2023 13:38:45 GMT -5
I'm not really bothered by the shape, construction or any other aspect of a poem come to that, but I am deeply bothered by the notion of communication. To me any form of art is about communication so I am always hoping to find something that I can understand, relate to, love or hate, feel, want to argue about or celebrate - and, come to that, anything else in between or beyond. If communication is bound about by secrets and obscure references then I am left untouched.
I wonder if academics can just read this type of poetry with easy (immediate) comprehension or do they have to work at it. There is Stein's remark that if you 'enjoy it you have understood it'. I understand her to mean that there a numerous ways to enjoy poetry of which comprehension by the intellect is just one and in relation to the poetry of Stein and Retallack in live readings not by any means a necessary criterion for enjoyment. I have an enjoyable earworm of Stein reading 'If I told him: A Completed Portrait of Picasso' without having a clue what most of it means. Picasso painted a portrait of Stein in which he painted out her head for a time. So maybe it is a form of thank you joke. In ModPo circles of course form is queen.
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Post by siobhan on Jan 17, 2023 17:34:44 GMT -5
As some of the other viewers compared Stein and Retallack I would say that for me Stein is easier. Stein is experimenting with language, words; Retallack, language and words yes but very abstract concepts and ideas. I would also agree with those who find her elitist, academic, and cerebreal. She makes reference to language and ideas which even upon researching I find difficult to understand. I also didn't get the connection, if there is one, of Wittgenstein to the Chinese Room or anything else in the recording. But then I guess I cannot say that I really understand Wittgenstein. The only things that seemed to reach me was near the end when he said: "thing that cannot be put into words is mystical" and "What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence." Although I'm not sure I agree with the last sentence because I think that what we cannot speak about we make art of. These lines, which I think are Retallack's, have meaning to me but which I cannot put into words: "the world is not all that is the case." and "it seems to utter itself." and "There must be a division between light and dark." I'm not sure they are exact quotes because I was taking notes as I was listening and may not have taken things down with exactitude. In one of the recordings Al mentions the twilight zone and it resonated with me. I think Retallack's work overall, in a distant reading if you will and not a close reading, somehow manages to make one feel like they had been in a fourth dimension. I think that is great praise for a poet for which I don't feel a lot of enthusiasm. But I guess that part of me that wants semantic meaning and sense is bigger than I would like to think.
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Marti
ModPo student
Posts: 11
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Post by Marti on Jan 19, 2023 11:52:51 GMT -5
Using what she has come to call the return of the method, Joan Retallack, re-reads Gertrude Stein, through method of modernism. When Retallack mentions that the beginning and ending of the poem is extraordinary, then she cautions not to read the after images, but to read the in-betweem of the chart tables. So could reading the in-between of the diagrams relate to what Retallack's refers to as return of the method?
Gertrude Stein's poem, 'Tractacus Logico Philosophicus', according Retallack. I have always thought that words and numbers don't mix, but I realized after reading this poem, with a little extra thought it can be used as a metaphor for poetry. I do, somewhat, understand Stein's atomic facts theory. If a sentence doesn't have an object or objects, then it sounds incomplete when read outloud. I kind of wonder if that's what Stein means by 'substance'is a fixed form for the sentence to hang on?
Gertrude Stein believes that the image or images within a picturee are 'the logical picture of the facts is thought and is expressed through the senses'. Soon after, the pictures then change to geometric structers and algebra equations. According to her, atomic thoughts are thinkable and imaginable, concrete, a fixed form.
Rettalack reads from several short pieces that seems to build on the subject began in 'Tractacus Logico Philosophicus', Stein believes that composisition represents the time that the writer is living and Retallack must reinforce this belief because of her chosen pieces of Gertrude Stein's poem's to read.
Even in a 'Woman in a Chinese Room illustrates Gertrude Stein's style of writing: A chinese woman writes thought experiment subtle enough, that betrayal of her traditions are not easily noticed. Or as in 'SteinZas in Mediation', integrated with Retallack's added lines to complement the work of Stein.
From what she has learned from reading Gertrude Stein and the meeting of John Cage, Retallack applies rules with certain blueprint that allows her to find herself in places she would not normally visit.
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Post by ellaadkins on Jan 22, 2023 12:44:09 GMT -5
From the little I've read of Stein, I'd say she seems to evacuate meaning from words in order to allow for new perceptions and associations to arise. There is something about this that, despite appearances, seems organic, that is generated from the material, the matter, of words themselves. On the other hand, with JR, I have the sense of a mind hard at work, wrestling with history, with the philosophers, with the canon, with the impositions of language. I woke up in the middle of the night a couple of nights ago with this image: A woman standing within a larger than life, hollow, human-shaped form made of clay or perhaps metal. She has a hammer and chisel and is working on making chinks from within, seeking to to crack open the form that imprisons and encases her. JR has, I think, a more political objective than Stein. I think she wants to destroy the old forms, all our assumptions about the world and how it's supposed to work that we take for granted, as givens. She wants to open up new avenues for thinking about the world, thinking differently, in ways that we cannot even yet envisage. She says it herself at around 19:30 in the audio reading: "How to not inscribe yourself in the system you're opposing / opposing opposable thumbs". I read the "opposable thumbs" here as us, the too-clever-by-half homo sapiens currently bent on destroying our world. To change that we need to change how we think; we need to become more aware of what our words are saying.
I really resonated with this Lou. I have been feeling the bravery and forgery of Retallack through reading her work in this session and you have seemed to encapsulate it perfectly here for me.
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