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Post by afilreis on Jan 11, 2023 10:18:32 GMT -5
For our fifth sample of Joan Retallack's writing, we turn to a poem well-known by the ModPo community (because it appears in the main syllabus of ModPo week 9, as an example of aleatory writing). I am referring to "Not a Cage."
If you click here:
—you will see ModPo links to the text of the poem, to an episode of PoemTalk about the poem, and to several filmed discussions of the poem.
Let's use this thread to discuss any and all aspects of this poem. We discussed it during our Zoom session, so you can use that discussion as the basis of your further reflections.
—Al
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Post by marciacamino on Jan 11, 2023 12:44:35 GMT -5
So much of this poem is lovely to me, from the rhymes to the rhythms to the enjambments. Some fabulous lines there are, too, to ponder and make meaning of in mind and heart. I appreciate this poem having read it without first knowing the biographical deets (she is culling through her bookshelves). But to know the real-life act that is behind the poem adds an element of bookish delight for me, for how fabulous of her as she says as opener to the recording of her reading the poem that selecting lines from her books about to leave her hands is a way to assuage herself of the guilt of letting go of books. This is a bit magical, this act, to take something from one book, then something from another, and to put it all together to create a piece that speaks about it all. It's definitely not a Cage, this poem. The great double meaning of the poem title--she is a Cageian--is delightful. I smell fire/AT FULL VOLUME. I did not bother looking up details of the books she pulled from. Will keep up with our posts here to see what others who might have glean.
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Will B
ModPo student
Posts: 19
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Post by Will B on Jan 11, 2023 14:58:44 GMT -5
I love this poem, as well as its origin story. I also appreciate Retallack’s admission that it wasn't completely random, i.e., that there was some amount of selection and modification involved. So much of the beauty of the poem lies in the choices she made regarding the passages and their order (I think). Still, it’s interesting how some line sequences are particularly evocative (one of my favorites: “In the ordinary of summer/girls were still singing/like a saguaro cactus from which any desert wayfarer can draw”) and others are more what I would expect from a “random” assemblage (“Scientific inquiry, seen in a very broad perspective may/see Foot 1957, also Wetermarck 1906, Ch. XIII”). What I find most interesting, though, is that Retallack succeeded in producing an intriguing work out of what she seemed to find most unintriguing—works she was culling from her own library. Converting trash to treasure, or, if you will, making a gourmet meal out of random ingredients (as in an episode of Chopped). Don’t collagists and found-object artists and commonplace diarists, on the other hand, include things in their works that do interest them (not things that don’t)? Or maybe even Retallack is saying, “if you think this is amazing, imagine how fantastic would be a poem with lines from the books I’m keeping!” While I could look up the origins of the lines on Google Books, I’d rather imagine that “I smell fire” came from Fahrenheit 451 and that “God, say your prayers” was straight out of a Clint Eastwood screenplay. With “Ya se dijeron las cosas mas oscuras/The most obscure things have already been said” I almost wondered why Retallack was getting rid of one of her own books. The lines would have fit perfectly into How to Do Things with Words. But I am left with questions (and yes, I have been through the ModPo stuff more than once): does it make sense to try to close-read a work that claims to be a random assemblage of bits and pieces of others’ works? How so? A poem based on my response: I love this poem/How so?
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Post by muckdogzen on Jan 11, 2023 16:51:24 GMT -5
I keep thinking "the difference is spreading" as I read this. But, somehow, she is collecting and blending like a master chef.
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adef
ModPo student
Posts: 20
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Post by adef on Jan 11, 2023 17:02:38 GMT -5
Poetry from remnants of books to be discarded.
Even the marginalised, the stigmatised, the excluded, the disappeared and the invisible have a story to tell.
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Post by marciacamino on Jan 11, 2023 17:06:27 GMT -5
I love this poem, as well as its origin story. I also appreciate Retallack’s admission that it wasn't completely random, i.e., that there was some amount of selection and modification involved. So much of the beauty of the poem lies in the choices she made regarding the passages and their order (I think). Still, it’s interesting how some line sequences are particularly evocative (one of my favorites: “In the ordinary of summer/girls were still singing/like a saguaro cactus from which any desert wayfarer can draw”) and others are more what I would expect from a “random” assemblage (“Scientific inquiry, seen in a very broad perspective may/see Foot 1957, also Wetermarck 1906, Ch. XIII”). What I find most interesting, though, is that Retallack succeeded in producing an intriguing work out of what she seemed to find most unintriguing—works she was culling from her own library. Converting trash to treasure, or, if you will, making a gourmet meal out of random ingredients (as in an episode of Chopped). Don’t collagists and found-object artists and commonplace diarists, on the other hand, include things in their works that do interest them (not things that don’t)? Or maybe even Retallack is saying, “if you think this is amazing, imagine how fantastic would be a poem with lines from the books I’m keeping!” While I could look up the origins of the lines on Google Books, I’d rather imagine that “I smell fire” came from Fahrenheit 451 and that “God, say your prayers” was straight out of a Clint Eastwood screenplay. With “Ya se dijeron las cosas mas oscuras/The most obscure things have already been said” I almost wondered why Retallack was getting rid of one of her own books. The lines would have fit perfectly into How to Do Things with Words. But I am left with questions (and yes, I have been through the ModPo stuff more than once): does it make sense to try to close-read a work that claims to be a random assemblage of bits and pieces of others’ works? How so? A poem based on my response: I love this poem/How so?
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Post by marciacamino on Jan 11, 2023 17:16:08 GMT -5
To your question, adef, "...does it make sense to try to close-read a work that claims to be a random assemblage of bits and pieces of others’ works? How so?", I would answer that it's sensible indeed to close-read a work of this nature, of this form. I say this because I believe that as readers we are encouraged and free to approach a poem, and indeed we always approach poems, with our own experiences, our own understandings, and our (best of all) own lenses that we are both used to and that we might not be as used to. We speak our truths as readers about the poems we are reading as much as we know the poets are speaking their truths. It is fascinating and fun. I'm curious what others think about close-reading the assemblage poem.
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lidia
ModPo student
Posts: 24
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Post by lidia on Jan 11, 2023 18:08:02 GMT -5
Marcia said - To your question, adef, "...does it make sense to try to close-read a work that claims to be a random assemblage of bits and pieces of others’ works? How so?", I would answer that it's sensible indeed to close-read a work of this nature, of this form.
I would say yes too. Yesterday in the Zoom session someone made the interesting comment that Beginnings and Endings of books are special - very well considered by the original book writer. Maybe a hook in the case of an opening. Maybe a summation/culmination in the case of an ending. As someone said previously, JR's process of assemblage comes into it, so elements of craft can be be commented on. The effect of the words on the reader - is comment worthy in my opinion - chance or no chance. Art usually elicits a response regardless of its origin story. In this case however, I feel that I might not appreciate the poem if I didn't know the book culling prequel. The context becomes important - pinned to the work on a 'sticky note'. Not just the 'how' but the process/history of arriving at the 'how' is a necessary addition. I get the impression that JR is concerned with contexts and frames driven by history, philosophy, linguistics, culture ... (you name it) - where change is configured and multiplicity is born.
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leahs
ModPo student
Posts: 11
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Post by leahs on Jan 11, 2023 21:54:12 GMT -5
I love so many lines in this poem -- or combined lines of beginnings and endings, as Retallack describes in audio, recombined.
"not a building, this earth, not a cage / The artist: disciple, abundant, multiple, restless"
"and wake up deep in the fruit / Did you get the money we sent?"
"girls were still singing / like a saguaro cactus from which any desert wayfarer can draw"
And those single lines that stand so well for me, like,
"The lights go down, the curtain opens: the first thing we"
Hearing via the audio that Retallack composed this poem out of beginning and endings lines of books made me love this poem a lot more than I had initially. That gesture alone is poetic. To remix starts and finishes, births and deaths. To suggest that these things are closer together, or can be, than we might think.
I feel refreshed and surprised by her process, and I admire the product, with the own first line of the title "Not a Cage" reflecting a sense of freedom in bar-like horizontal lines, and the final line "The most obscure things have already been said" reflecting, for me now, a sense of her discarding those books she drew upon to write the poem. Of scanning and knowing nothing is new, but can somehow at least be made new, be made fresh, in cutting, excising, undigging, refining.
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Post by vijaya on Jan 11, 2023 23:51:19 GMT -5
Erica picked up a beautiful sentence from The Poethical Wager in the Poem Talk with Al, Laynie, and Joan Retallack. Part of that sentence" ..reader and writer wander in lush untranslatability surveying new territory as they go." As I read this poem, I get a sense of a walk through that kind of territory. Even the title resonates with a sense of freedom. No, none of us have to be in cages, whether of gender or the roles we assume for practical purposes of everyday living, here in this territory. And as we walk nothing matters except the commonality of language which is lush and rich and layered and we see so many beautiful gems shining, or flowers or whatever it is that we want to make of those words. I stop at various points to enjoy and ponder on thoughts that arise as I take in say a phrase - "To man (sic) the world is twofold," I am thinking of the Hare in JR's poem Western Civ Contd - of white men and patriarchy who prefer to see the world in binaries of black and white. Then I come across a sentence like - The artist: disciple, abundant, multiple, restless- And I discover that restless goes with 'yearning minds' from her other poem None too soon. This is a walk that somehow energizes me. And there are things that do not make sense to me. But it is alright. I am fine with not knowing. I have no claims to be all that knowledgeable anyway. It is freeing too, this sense of not having to know every little bit right now. The last line is such a summing up of all the lines, similar to the way a sonnet ends. I read a bit of playfulness in it. She is discarding the books, and she takes the first and last lines and 'recycles' them into this poem. Is she saying that all books she is discarding are 'obscure' or that what we do not read are anyway 'obscure?' I like it that if I come upon this poem next year, I will look at it differently. This lushness will be there, but it will be different.
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Post by Paul K on Jan 11, 2023 23:53:20 GMT -5
Leah, thanks for your collection of favorite lines. Wonderful sparks.
I read the poem several times on its own, without the information about its origin or JR's process. It reminded me, in part, of a novel by Italo Calvino that I ready long ago: If on a Winter's Night a Traveler. In this book, the Reader (sometimes addressed in the second person) is continually frustrated in his attempt to read through a book, finding in each case that the physical book he has been reading is incomplete or actually part of some other book. None of the stories finish.
I could imagine taking each line (or pairing or set of lines) and using it to spark a poem. Ultimately, "Not a Cage" would be a the inspiration for an entire suite of poems.
Reflecting, however, back to JR's play in "complex realism" (The Poethical Wager), I am tempted to take up Quita Slef's voice and push for a role for simplification, or at least for a through line. JR herself says that "certain kinds of art" shift attention "to formally framed material conditions in ingenious ways." As JR's conception of "material conditions" does not seem to be reductively materialist--it seems to include culture and dreams, at least--it would seem to me that Hopkins's "The Windhover" would qualify. The poem is complex, but has a through line that, furthermore, attempts to point to the heart of things (or one part of the heart of things) in "the fire that breaks from thee then." In JR's view, must all poethical art be as unresolved as "Not a Cage"? Would she regard all resolution as a cage?
-Paul
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Post by jennifer on Jan 12, 2023 3:17:41 GMT -5
And I discover that restless goes with 'yearning minds' from her other poem None too soon. This is a walk that somehow energizes me. And there are things that do not make sense to me. But it is alright. I am fine with not knowing. I have no claims to be all that knowledgeable anyway. It is freeing too, this sense of not having to know every little bit right now. The last line is such a summing up of all the lines, similar to the way a sonnet ends. I read a bit of playfulness in it. She is discarding the books, and she takes the first and last lines and 'recycles' them into this poem. Is she saying that all books she is discarding are 'obscure' or that what we do not read are anyway 'obscure?' I like it that if I come upon this poem next year, I will look at it differently. This lushness will be there, but it will be different. 'I am fine with not knowing...it is freeing too, this sense of not having to know every little bit right now.' This is what keeps me in ModPo, why I now invest so much of my life in poetry one way and another, I like it that not just if I come upon this poem next year I will look at it differently, but also that it is becoming part of other aspects of my life too: books, people, conversations, the countryside around me, my own house even. Thank you Vijaya, Al, Joan Retallack and everyone in ModPo.
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Post by Prithvijeet Sinha on Jan 12, 2023 6:03:06 GMT -5
The first time around I read this introductory work from Joan Retallack's iconoclastic oeuvre for MODPO, 2022, I was intrigued by the coherence of some selective lines and mostly wondered at its randomly wrought skeleton.
But the second time's the charm even after multiple readings of the original text previously in MODPO. Perhaps it has to do with the manner in which Ms. Retallack's words have come to be appreciated by this reader circa January, 2023. Mostly, though, the Dadaist imprint and Tzara-ian style of assemblage here is well-suited to the intertextuality and interdisciplinary nature of her legacy, her portfolio. An innate sense of curiosity is her calling card and the interdisciplinary nature is right at home here, agreeable to the attention spans of our internet age where switching from one beat to another is, if not outright mentally but culturally and psychologically, relevant. The cultural overflow is a corollary of the way she switches gears, in a style that is restrained yet suffused with wordy chaos.
The references discovered anew are even more appealing among this thicket: Finnish philosopher and sociologist Edvard Westermarck gets ticked right at the top while the French herbal liqueur Benedictine and French location of Villandry get placed together, tying their national origin together. Towards the end too,Tubingen, a German university town, and its affinity with a student from Ohio, is a footnote without a concrete backdrop of details. The name Cynthia then floats like a middle prophesy, like a pen-friend whose correspondence has been lost to the mists of Time.
It's like a dream where all the sights and words collated in our memory banks swirl around without any one origin point, the cerebral core filled with what we absorb. Ms. Joan employs an interesting take on such a kind of information overload offset by some stirring lines that look at history( the coup in Spain),sociology, literary frisson( being begotten in a vague war) and poetic thought(the most obscure things have already been said)
I loved the thought on the world being twofold to man, the earth being neither a building nor a cage, implying the multitudinous ethos we accord to it depending on our actions, the artist being a disciple, abundant, restless as also summer being in the way of singing souls, akin to saguaro cacti as well that pithy reference to Roald Dahl's Mr. Fox.
Ms. Retallack's vast bibliophile is spread open like a random tapestry of many-hued reference points sans any definite axis. It's an experimental piece but gets intriguing, darting ahead with childlike glee.
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soni
ModPo student
Posts: 5
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Post by soni on Jan 12, 2023 11:04:29 GMT -5
Like many others, I loved this poem, loved the story behind the making of this poem, and was amazed how beautifully some of the random phrases fit together. And I think it's perfectly reasonable to do a close reading of Not a Cage, even if, maybe, because of .....its origin story.... fun.
Last night, I was thinking more about Retallack's formulaic process in creating this poem. And in the video discussion, it's clear that she did edit and revise a bit, more than just plugging the first and last line of each book in. But thinking about her process led me to what's going on with Artificial Intelligence and all of the poetry generators out there.
I'm cool with Retallack's process, but a bit uncomfortable with A.I.? Why ? Should I be? What are the ethics? Are there lines being crossed? I think I'd feel differently close reading an A.I. poem, duped or cheated, almost.
Will we ever see A.I. poems in ModPo?
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Post by marciacamino on Jan 12, 2023 12:08:16 GMT -5
Wow, soni: "I'm cool with Retallack's process, but a bit uncomfortable with A.I.? Why ? Should I be? What are the ethics? Are there lines being crossed? I think I'd feel differently close reading an A.I. poem, duped or cheated, almost.
Will we ever see A.I. poems in ModPo?"
I love this. I feel the same way. And I have the same questions. No answers at this point, though. (still fighting medicine head from a cold. will check back tomorrow). Say more about how JR's process reminds you of AI. The randomness and the editing/revising of randomness?
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