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Post by vijaya on Jan 8, 2023 20:16:43 GMT -5
The headnote to one of the sections talks about measuring a banana with a ruler, and then talks about measuring a ruler with bananas. What is the effect of this somewhat surprising reversal? And what does it have to do, if anything, with the idea of doing things with words? Reading JR is like talking to a child- the wonder, the playfulness, and the joy that emerges from learning language afresh from a child's perspective. The reversal is so unexpected and also says something about our use of words. Exact and precise are synonyms. But that the banana can become a unit of measurement is, come to think of it not so strange once we jump into this 'poethical' world of Joan Retallack. Why is she doing this? Maybe she is referring to the history of language itself. How language tries to shift itself with the history of technology, and social and cultural trends. This is a difficult piece to understand but it appears that she is trying to push the boundaries of language.
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Post by vijaya on Jan 8, 2023 20:21:21 GMT -5
Sorry, my reply has tacked onto the quotrd text. Here it is: Thank you Vijaya. Perhaps types of nonsense are sometimes/frequently/really fresh types of sense. Jennifer, thanks for the response.
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Post by Laura De Bernardi on Jan 8, 2023 21:23:40 GMT -5
Austen/Austin - Jane Austen can be interpreted as a realist writer, certainly when compared to the Gothic novels she so roundly mocks (I'm just finishing reading Northanger Abbey to my twins!).
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Post by Laura De Bernardi on Jan 8, 2023 21:35:11 GMT -5
Not sure how to use the 'quote' box yet! So, trying again, Miranda, I recently read Ann Radcliffe's The Mysteries of Udolpho. Austen brilliantly satirised its Gothic elements and may have changed the tide of English fiction, but Radcliffe's psychological penetration is superb and she is a terrific story teller. I had to read it to understand why she was lauded. I have to also mention my favourite quotes from Northanger Abbey. Austen extols novels by Maria Edgeworth and Fanny Burney in which "the greatest powers of the human mind are displayed" and says "Everybody allows that the talent of writing is particularly female." What a brave soul, what self-belief, despite never seeing her own name in print! Your twins are growing up in a very different world, but one which owes her a great deal.
PS: Radcliffe was the most highly paid professional writer in her day.
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leahs
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Post by leahs on Jan 8, 2023 22:16:43 GMT -5
I love the "continual delivery of fresh forms of nonsense" here. Recombining words and letters to make the logical illogical. Or to show how the logical often becomes illogical in language.
A recent family experience comes to mind. One person in the family tells the experience one way. The other tells it another ways. These subjective narratives might overlap somewhat, but also have quite different meanings, depending on the emphasis given to certain events, words or intents.
Or perhaps put this way: there are not just unreliable narrators. Language itself is the unreliable narrator. What a compliment it would be to be believed, Retallack and Austen allude. But Retallack throws in the possibility that understanding someone else's belief or reality through language is never easy.
Perhaps part of why Retallack chose Austen as a point of comparison to Austin (aside from the soundalike nature, soundalike or phonetics being another way that langauge may not mean itself exactly nor precisely, or be precise in one way but highly inexact in another way), well part of the reason I think Retallack may be alluding to Austen is that Austen's writing contains wit and humour, repartee. It also contains many misunderstandings between people/characters.
Wit is important when it comes to making words mean something different than they might when used algebraically/mathematically. Wit might involve taking a serious idea and making it light/silly, just by changing a very few words or sounds within that idea. Wit or humor can take the heavy and make it lightly absurd. Bring the nonsense - it's so important. Wit, or at least verbal wit, also often has to do with a strong command of language and idiom. In this poem, Retallack takes a hammer and chisel to some words here and there, breaking parts of words off from their suffixes, leaving us hanging, or leaving the word itself hanging, perhaps. Or the poet leaving herself hanging, because there is risk in not completing the sentence, not completing the thought, in overtly witholding, in making no sense. (Women in particular being regarded, so often, as nonsensical/emotional, it can be hard for a "serious poet" to overtly take on that role at times.)
Including Austen points to the fact that there are ways to be serious by being unserious. And vice versa. It's not necessary for thoughts about language to be so dryly expressed all the time, as in many textbooks and theoretical treatise and academic articles.
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Post by Paul K on Jan 8, 2023 23:55:18 GMT -5
Might Alice refer to Alice B. Toklas, Stein's companion and lover? This could fit with romantic intentions. And the refraction of Alice could be what Stein did in her Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas, refracting Alice through her own lens and story even as she, somewhat archly, impersonated Alice's voice.
... all that language claimed and reclaimed for refracting Alice the claim to know but/with/inherently [inherited?] romantic intentions.
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Post by Richard Wang on Jan 9, 2023 0:16:32 GMT -5
It may not be so bad to take JR at her word - to open she tells us the piece will have the subject “Excuses,” and that’s all she’ll say about it, at least by way of “treatment.” I think I can take “treat” to mean the semantically and grammatically coherent, argument-making formal register academic-ese of the portions “above the bar” on each page. This above-the-bar:formal, below-the-bar:something-else format is consistent throughout the poem… although by the end she tells us (but we should have realized by then) that these formal appearing statements above the bar may not be what they look or sound like ("whether many apparent pseudo-statements really set out to be 'statements'at all." pg.92)…hinting at the possibility for things made out of language to … what? Be something other than itself? Is this one of the ways language can “do things?” And of course this referring to itself business means we’re doing metapoetry but no surprise there. To find out more I then look below the bar. I think JR continues to be kind enough to guide us at least in the beginning (pg.87). We’re interested in the relationship between passions and truth (but we don’t want the language from pop fiction or tv). We’re interested in the extent to which one or the other or both of these things could be a) made “more itself (whetted)” (i.e., closer to “true” passion, closer to “truer” truth - here’s the collapse into recursion?fractals? re truth already), or b) tethered or grounded in something… which would have to be something like truth. Lol. There’s a warning about what’s about to happen, i.e. collision of intentiononintention, read by JR as intention on non-intention, and then it happens. Stuff starts crashing into each other, though I think JR might be trying to tell us about it, i.e. sentences of the form p is true or what interests me is x will have abrupt intersections… Some other things I notice in these “below the bar” sections:” - The first paragraph is all JR narrating; where there’s a second paragraph (coincidentally all on right-side pages) quotations from Jane Austen enter the mix. Perhaps highlighting how it’s not just our own language that collides in our thoughts, language from others gets in there as well.
- At times grammatical continuity is challenged beyond the “collisions” of intentional and non-intentional thought (although which ones were intentional?). See “whether or whether this or this is” in place of what I think is “whether this is” on pg.90 and later in the same page, “that one/might/in fact.” This could be an observation on the arbitrariness of our rules and processes for parsing meaning from signs.
- Speaking of signs… that stuff is wingdings! Translated with spaces maintained (Interesting how x and y are isolated… I don’t know anything about formal linguistics (J.L. Austin) but I imagine in discussing what language can do, some sort of algebra would come in handy):
 Also,
The headnote to one of the sections talks about measuring a banana with a ruler, and then talks about measuring a ruler with bananas. What is the effect of this somewhat surprising reversal? And what does it have to do, if anything, with the idea of doing things with words? - She just switched the words around! … turns out that’s a thing JR can do with words. JR can also take synonyms and posit a difference given an arbitrary context ("can be, and should be, distinguished" pg.90) and that will set people off examining the properties of measurement and rulers and bananas, armed with notions of identity and so on… hey how do you know she didn’t impale six bananas on the ruler and found there wasn’t enough ruler to impale a seventh?
- “Death I think she said is no parenthesis” seems to be a paraphrase of the last line of Cummings’s poem “Since feeling is first.”
There’s so much more in this poem to notice but tomorrow is a work day and I do have some thoughts about the poem as a whole. Always cautious to “interpret” a poem but I nonetheless think that there is a coherent project that is “hidden” in here. I think this poem is *about* her divorce. It could be that I’m privileging the content that was deepest “hidden” in the signs; it could be that “Excuses,” “passion,” “truth,” and the stumbling diction in the wingdings (along with what feels to me to be a search for more precise meaning via “extablish,” “unmarried”) come together with such astonishing coherence, “since feeling is first”… It could be that I’m enchanted by the idea of JR attempting an understanding of her experience, and immediately being troubled by the trouble with language - familiar formulations are ineffectual, yet when she tries to get language to mean better she finds that the signs are arbitrary and protean, their meanings are slippery and ungrounded. Formal rational argumentation fails; stream-of-consciousness style inquiry into the nature of language also fails, constantly interrupted by herself and others… It’s not until I recognized the truthfulness and candor in presenting these failures as they are that I was able to realize that something had been done with words. What couldn't be said had been preserved and communicated. The “excuse” (for not speaking of her unmarriage directly) was a non-excuse because that way was a dead end to begin with.
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lidia
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Post by lidia on Jan 9, 2023 5:16:26 GMT -5
'Austin warns us to take care when removing words from their ordinary usage, giving numerous examples of how this can lead to error.' JR is using slabs of interdisciplinary material (clusters of words) removed from its context to ironize what? I am bamboozled ... I think irony when Jane Austen is mentioned - beyond all appearances there runs an incisive commentary, that often contradicts what we observe in the drawing-room. Is JR giving us incisive commentary about the inadequacy of linguistics when it comes to pinning down how language functions?
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Post by alantoltzis on Jan 9, 2023 8:00:47 GMT -5
Thank you, Richard, That was extremely helpful!  - Speaking of signs… that stuff is wingdings!
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Will B
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Post by Will B on Jan 9, 2023 10:06:48 GMT -5
J. L. Austin developed the theory that says our words not only assert things, but also have actions of their own. So here’s what this poem “did” to me. Retallack’s reading of her 1991 (AF thinks) version of “How to Do Things With Words” brought to my mind the KWH reading last March by Caroline Bergvall of her own work. There’s wow-ness in the readings of both of these “experimental” poets. [check it out: www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmT7TdMypyc, especially from 30:14] When I read “How to Do Things With Words,” I had just finished reading Annie Ernaux’s novel/memoir (who knows what to call her work?) The Years, where she writes (p. 82), “In her diary she writes that she feels ‘hypersaturated with all-purpose ideas and theories,’ that she is ‘looking for another language’ and ‘longs to return to an original purity.’ She dreams of writing in a language no one knows.” Is this what Retallack's poem is doing to me? Then there was the “Unbegun Symphony” by P.D.Q. Bach (AKA Peter Schickele), a mash up of Classical, Romantic, folk, contemporary, and other tunes. The several aha moments of the music generate laughter that you can hear in the audience. So musical “words” can generate actions, too. [listen here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLDzeGvzK4s] And finally, the Dalai Lama. In a recent interview, he mentioned the “analytical meditation” of his personal practice. In Buddhist thought, thinking (the sixth of our senses) generates words that in turn generate actions. When we are able to set aside the influences of our other 5 senses, we are able to concentrate on those thoughts: where do these thoughts come from? Why do they arise? And who’s asking these questions? The deepest consideration of these issues, he says, prepares us to face death (and what comes after) with equanimity. Okay, not finally. There are the last 2 lines. For me, considerations of death have escaped the parentheses of my daily life. “Phooey”? Often the Dalai Lama sticks out his tongue to generate happiness in others (not to make fun of them). Tongues speak louder than tongues?
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Will B
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Post by Will B on Jan 9, 2023 10:19:24 GMT -5
The headnote to one of the sections talks about measuring a banana with a ruler, and then talks about measuring a ruler with bananas. What is the effect of this somewhat surprising reversal? And what does it have to do, if anything, with the idea of doing things with words? Can this refer to the differences in meaning words can have? How many bananas would you need to measure Trump, Putin, and other self-perceived rulers? A slippery slope.
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Post by Denny on Jan 9, 2023 12:10:40 GMT -5
The headnote to one of the sections talks about measuring a banana with a ruler, and then talks about measuring a ruler with bananas. What is the effect of this somewhat surprising reversal? And what does it have to do, if anything, with the idea of doing things with words? In real life no one would measure a ruler because the ruler is itself a tool of measurement, so is this an instance of language being performative, that is doing something simply because its possible to do so ? Also bananas are curved so is she throwing us a curveball? Probably a curve ball. It's bananas! Is a banana ruler a measure of a banana republic? I think the jury is out regarding bananas but will likely slip on appeals.
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Post by Denny on Jan 9, 2023 12:20:28 GMT -5
Sorry, my reply has tacked onto the quotrd text. Here it is: Thank you Vijaya. Perhaps types of nonsense are sometimes/frequently/really fresh types of sense. I'm doing this as a test. I just tried to reply to a particular post and my post did not post, so I'm trying to this to see what happens.
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Post by Denny on Jan 9, 2023 12:24:09 GMT -5
Sorry, my reply has tacked onto the quotrd text. Here it is: Thank you Vijaya. Perhaps types of nonsense are sometimes/frequently/really fresh types of sense. Hi Jennifer, I've now tried twice to reply to particular posts without apparent success so I guess I do not know how to do so
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Marti
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Post by Marti on Jan 9, 2023 12:36:30 GMT -5
Joan Retallack's, 'Excuses and Other Nonsense: How to do Things with Words'
Retallack believes that the words precisely and exactly are almost opposites, precisely being the more succinct word choice or object choice. I was really taken by her illustration on page 90 and spent most of my time trying to figure out the message, so didn't have much time to spend on the actual questions.
Here a pause to consider a theory of functions of a real variable.
Like her belief with the two words above, the glyphs, that represent the zodiac signs in the illustration, all resemble opposites their opposite signs except for the glyphs for Libra and Sagittarius. On an astrological chart, in a particular house system, the cusp of the seventh can begin in Virgo, end in Scorpio at the cusp of the eighth, yet be intercepted by Libra; therefore, influenced with this signs characteristics. The same with Sagittarius, the cusp of the ninth house will begin in Scorpio, end in Capricorn at the tenth, and be intercepted by Sagittarius. There are over twenty-two house systems and an accidental dignity for each. The opposing sign glyphs are Cancer/Capricorn, Leo/Aquarius, and Virgo/Pisces, and each opposing sign represents one of the quadruplicities (modes of expression). For instance, the quadruplicity for Cancer and Capricorn-Cardinal, begins the idea or project; Leo and Aquarius-Fixed, are steadfast with the idea or project; and Virgo and Pisces-Mutable, finish, polish, tie up loose endings, having to do with the idea of project. With her continuous effort to combine writing and various other forms of knowledge, a quite liberal and expansive way of thinking about writing is realized through nonsense no less. I have to admit that the nonsense writing felt more like an interruption in learning more about poetry; however, when running across the illustration with various zodiac glyphs, she was speaking my language. She has a complex grasp of various information systems and a unique way of understanding them. I think I gained something that I can't quite put my finger on yet. I feel fuller.
There is not many similarities between Jane Austen's, fiction 'Sense and Sensibility' and J. L Austin's witty yet lukewarm 'Sense and Sensibilia'. The only similarity I see, is the fact that 'J. L Austin feels that senses are dumb and we can easily be deceived by them. Perhaps like the character Marianne in Jane Austen's novel.
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