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Post by afilreis on Jan 17, 2023 11:36:59 GMT -5
Dear fellow Retallackites:
It's time to turn to our seventh sample of Joan Retallack's writing—a poem called "The Problem of Evil." Here is a link to the text of the poem:
Here are a few questions you might ponder as you respond here in our discussion forum thread:
1. What sort of "evil" does JR mean here? 2. She's playing with various senses—including idiomatic senses—of "light" in the final lines of the first section of the poem. What is she doing with light? What effect do the variations of this term/idea have on us as readers of the poem? 3. Both sections begin with the idea of a game with opaque or indiscernible rules. What's going on there? What does such a game have to do with the problem of evil? 4. Why the quasi-repeating/variational two sections? What effect does this have? 5. What is the overall *tone* of this poem?
I look forward to your responses!
—Al
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Post by Denny on Jan 17, 2023 12:42:14 GMT -5
The poem recalls an anecdote an older teenager related to me years ago as we wrote graffiti on the kitchen cabinets. She was in college and had a philosophy professor, she said, who during a lecture proclaimed ‘time is a series of nows’ and then proceeded to repeat ceaselessly ‘now and now and now and now and now and now and now…’ as he walked about the class and out the door down the hall, still stuck on the phrase like a broken record, and it’s that broken record quality of a repeating that strikes me in the poem where the second page appears to read nearly identically to the first. But in this case the tortured anxious ambience of that ceaselessly present now has the tenor of the lies of a sleeping dog, a tragicomic rut of repeated ambiguity in perpetuity which may stand for the problem of evil as a devilish bugbear to be rid of.
BTW I read none of Al’s questions (which I now see as I post this) before reading the poem and then writing a response
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Post by Judy on Jan 17, 2023 14:23:48 GMT -5
Of "The fans.are screaming like a God dividing light from dark" and of many who are at an exhibition, not the creators of it, but attended audience of expression ambiguous cathartic and potentially destructive only but they are not the primary actors but fans and a possible singular God contested Of a single vs polytheistic structure Of one and many of monotheism's "one God" and yet possibly interoperable as one of many to be it looks like Retallack might be influenced by a template mode I think of George Oppen in "Of Being Numerous" as she and earlier he (do they know each other) considers the complex Ten Commandments and potential monotheistic imagery around the liturgy including the Jewish Sh'ma or even the concept of trinity and integrated religious and metaphysical ideating around maybe the loss of polytheistic thinking and modes Latin and experience creating or being a primary actor and not audience or Iggy's "passenger" only, especially art and of and many is one God and possibly one of many is a daring interpretation about which I have to ask a Rabbi and of
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Post by Judy on Jan 17, 2023 14:33:47 GMT -5
I needed to note that "fans screaming like a God" notes that multiple fans exist as articulators inarticulate because they only scream and not write poetry or act definitely in other of our world's high realms and yet "screaming like a god" is like one God and yet by using the " part of whole but they are like one or "a god" who is simultaneously a singular god and a single god and also conceptually suggestive of multiple extant gods of a polytheistic system and the article "a" used instead of the ("like a god" and not the god) and later similar line presents a disruption as poetic time progresses in the fan repeated almost choral line but in the wrong position for a chorus to be sung bitterly if at all
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Will B
ModPo student
Posts: 19
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Post by Will B on Jan 17, 2023 15:35:33 GMT -5
Dear fellow Retallackites:
It's time to turn to our seventh sample of Joan Retallack's writing—a poem called "The Problem of Evil." Here is a link to the text of the poem:
Here are a few questions you might ponder as you respond here in our discussion forum thread:
1. What sort of "evil" does JR mean here? 2. She's playing with various senses—including idiomatic senses—of "light" in the final lines of the first section of the poem. What is she doing with light? What effect do the variations of this term/idea have on us as readers of the poem? 3. Both sections begin with the idea of a game with opaque or indiscernible rules. What's going on there? What does such a game have to do with the problem of evil? 4. Why the quasi-repeating/variational two sections? What effect does this have? 5. What is the overall *tone* of this poem?
I look forward to your responses!
—Al
I respectfully request that we be called Re tallacktites in honor of those of us who feel like we are just managing to hang on as we pursue our goal of reaching the bottom of this cavern of seeking an understanding of Joan and her inspirers.
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Post by kymminbarcelona on Jan 17, 2023 16:41:52 GMT -5
I'm just so taken with her play on words/ play on cliché in this one! Telling sleeping dog lies! I could just sit and think about that phrase all day. And two gerunds in a row! In a poem! *heart*
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Post by Jason Luz on Jan 17, 2023 16:52:12 GMT -5
I’m assuming the stadium sport alluded to here, the green and white grid, that blimp, is football—American football—which I’ve never learned the rules to. But I do know just enough to recognize the lexical resemblance to military tactics (green and white here instead of dire lexical black and white) and homoerotics (a lot of penetration among mascara-ed behemoths in tights.) There’s definitely torqued cliches and idioms and other strange conflations and slippages. Telling sleeping dogs lies. Hopping to keep from burning up: the floor is lava—a more innocent child’s game playing at dire consequences. The menacing image of a bedside intruder, sneezing and covering your mouth instead of his—a hygiene convention breached in the middle of a possibly violent act. That jump cut from bedside to stadium, screaming fans at first sounding like ceiling fans? And the the flashing message on the blimp, echoing the flashing LED of an answering machine. Then the shuffling through of different metaphors with light—Judeo-Christian cosmology, logical positivism, mortality, suddenly that intruder that sneezed in your face is whispering vaguely liturgical sweet nothings in your ear? And then the confusion of the second section. I think when I first read this I somehow thought the only variation was in the enjambments, and only now realize it’s like an expertly shuffled deck of cards, the entire poem divided halfway and then shuffled to create a woven but intact sequence of the two halves. The first line is still the first line, and same with the last line. Somehow the effect, the muddled semantics somehow not so disjunctive or transforming, is of a dream retold in montage, or a postmodern take on some pre-socratic mystical allegory. And with that ponderous title, THE PROBLEM OF EVIL? It’s definitely complicating Zoroastrian Judeo-Christian notions of light and dark. It’s making me think of Jack Spicer’s Imaginary Elegy #3, which we read in Jason Zuzga’s amazing SloPo last year, where Spicer offers darkness as an alternative ethos. What is this morality then, this notion of good and evil, if not binary, then another notion of lived and perceived complexity, societal senescence, moral relativism? Is it banality of pragmatism, Gertrude Stein not only cooperating with but heralding the Vichy government. The poethics of regarding a figure from a different fin-de-siecle and their complicated mix of progressive and reactionary ideas that seem to put into question our own ethical stance as contemporary subjects and constituent observers in our own thick descriptions, the politics unspoken but inherent in our poetics. This is all starting to feel to me like Bergvall’s strange and ambivalent descent in VIA, like the poem can go on reshuffling and reshuffling and the idealities getting murkier and muddier. Or dough folded and stretched over and over, the troubling strands longer, tighter, stickier.
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Post by marciacamino on Jan 17, 2023 16:52:47 GMT -5
I like this poem and feel both oriented and disoriented in it. Disorientation is fine. It's part of the Three Cheers for Difficulty in poem world.
Regarding tone: I hear a blend of three things: a matter-of-factness, a sing-ful meandering (wrought from the repetition of so many lines in part 2 rather than in individual lines, which I find except occasionally leaning toward dry (matter-of-fact), and, last, an eeriness bolstered by the 'he' in the poem saying something 'you are the light of my life' as he covers the mouth of the addressed/the you in the poem. Tone is braided, which is complex and for me contributes to its disorientation.
Re the light: There is light, light, everywhere (even idiomatically, which adds an innate lightness, no pun intended) and it fills the poem, but it's a dark poem. A definite actual and metaphysical/abstract setting, and that's the cause of my disorientation in it. I like that though. It feel like a night poem and a film noir-ish one at that, for me (green and white grid, screaming fans, an answering machine, a figure in the dark...all spooky and a bit nerve-wracking).
Re the problem of evil: Evil is inherently problematic. Or is it? Games have rules for a reason that can get/do get easily broken when human intention other than rule-following comes into play, and that is often. I don't know the kind of evil at work here. To put your hand over someone's mouth in a poem this dark is nothing but bad news, and one can infer a lot. It does mean on one level silencing someone, which poets are not into AT ALL, and so the real action of hand-over-mouth might symbolize/equate to the metaphysical nature that is claimed by the speaker because metaphysical is mentioned twice. But to name/describe/define that, I am at a loss and look forward to others' responses, besides Miss Pasta's.
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Post by marciacamino on Jan 17, 2023 17:11:11 GMT -5
Oh my gosh: screaming fans. Not overhead fans whose motors are bad or some poetic hyperbole regarding the sound of fans? A sporting event? Completely completely did not see that.
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lidia
ModPo student
Posts: 24
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Post by lidia on Jan 17, 2023 18:25:50 GMT -5
'The fans are screaming' - I thought of Apocalypse Now - the opening scene. The overhead fan that morphs into a chopper.
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Post by Ray Schrempf on Jan 17, 2023 18:28:52 GMT -5
3. Both sections begin with the idea of a game with opaque or indiscernible rules. What's going on there? What does such a game have to do with the problem of evil?
I like the way this is phrased. “This is a game” refers directly back to ‘The Problem of Evil’ wherein the “light of reason” only serves to make things opaque. The application of reason itself is “highly metaphysical / and suspect”. Sorry but “a god dividing light from dark” is “like the figure who appears / in your dark bedroom and sneezes / before he puts his hand over your mouth”. Good and evil can’t be separated just as light and dark can’t be separated. You can’t have one without the other. And there is no way to figure it out. There is no discernment to be gained in rational disputation by the light of reason. It’s a reason to let sleeping dogs lie. I.e. trying to figure it out only causes more confusion. Lying like a dog is to lie a lot - to tell many untruths. Best not to wake him up. The way to elucidate the problem of evil is not to shine the light of reason on it but to compose a poem that works as JR has done. Who is Miss Pasta? It’s rather Epicurious. The past has left you Another ominous message.
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Post by Barbara Nilsen on Jan 17, 2023 18:33:43 GMT -5
Dear fellow Retallackites:
It's time to turn to our seventh sample of Joan Retallack's writing—a poem called "The Problem of Evil." Here is a link to the text of the poem:
Here are a few questions you might ponder as you respond here in our discussion forum thread:
1. What sort of "evil" does JR mean here? 2. She's playing with various senses—including idiomatic senses—of "light" in the final lines of the first section of the poem. What is she doing with light? What effect do the variations of this term/idea have on us as readers of the poem? 3. Both sections begin with the idea of a game with opaque or indiscernible rules. What's going on there? What does such a game have to do with the problem of evil? 4. Why the quasi-repeating/variational two sections? What effect does this have? 5. What is the overall *tone* of this poem?
I look forward to your responses!
—Al
I respectfully request that we be called Re tallacktites in honor of those of us who feel like we are just managing to hang on as we pursue our goal of reaching the bottom of this cavern of seeking an understanding of Joan and her inspirers. I love your request, Wil! It made me smile😊in agreement.
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Post by marciacamino on Jan 17, 2023 18:53:00 GMT -5
'The fans are screaming' - I thought of Apocalypse Now - the opening scene. The overhead fan that morphs into a chopper. Yes, yes. That.
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Post by Jason Luz on Jan 17, 2023 19:14:31 GMT -5
'The fans are screaming' - I thought of Apocalypse Now - the opening scene. The overhead fan that morphs into a chopper. Yes, yes. That. Oh I don't remember that jump cut. Ceiling fans always make me think of HGTV home makeover shows where they're always getting rid of the ceiling fans. That and David Lynch ominous B-roll where the ambient noise sounds like wailing.
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Post by Jason Luz on Jan 17, 2023 19:22:47 GMT -5
I'm just so taken with her play on words/ play on cliché in this one! Telling sleeping dog lies! I could just sit and think about that phrase all day. And two gerunds in a row! In a poem! *heart* Telling sleeping dogs lies--been trying to tease out what this twisted idiom could mean if anything, sounds like placating an undiscerning audience? maybe a bowdlerized history? A mass of people, a sleeping giant, suddenly roaring like a stadium, some ancient enraging truth revivified?
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